Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

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Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Vijay Mohan Raj » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm

HI,
For long I have been wondering many people who log into CNP feel that there is a too much of a tilt towards b/w images and also to include a lot of abstracts. I for one am in a dilemma because is CNP meant to be just that what I posted in the heading or are we more.
Let me do the dissection: entirely my personal views here
- People think that a little bit of pattern and which becomes contrasty when in B/W qualifies for a post in CNP
- People think that routine images is entirely frowned upon even if we it is a deviation from the bird on a stick situation
- People think that some images smooth out rough edges when converted to B/W, so the result is this. I know sometimes to bring out shapes and contrasts bette,r the colors have to sit on the bench this time but doing it routinely is asking for too much.
- People think that if it can match up to something in a abstract then it is worth posting on CNP

I disagree on all the above.
- It is time that to reinforce CNP is not a forum for B/W images but regular images of wildlife where the photographer has a unique point and angle of view with which he wishes to share with the world, the emphasis in UNIQUE not necessarily abstract or B/W
- Also pertinent is to note that true nature photography means being out in the wild, while images radiating from the settings around an urbane life is welcome but the true calling is when you are out in the field trying to make sense of escape route amidst ultrasound rumblings of large land mammals and faraway warning calls. In short it is nice to have images from the wild than patterns of natura urbania

Enough of my ramblings, let us hear out the montones.

regards
VMR
A creative mind is a restless soul...
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Nilanjan Das » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:12 pm

I think black and white becomes a natural choice in an attempt to move out of just as seen images, at least initially. Black and white images need more planning, more seeing and more imagination of the mind than how it seems. It is indeed lot difficult to bring out such changes in colored images unless someone is really shooting a lot in various conditions. I think none of us are doing that VMR. I can say for myself and to an extent about Ganesh also that we mostly love to shoot against light and this itself is the first step where we think of sacrificing details which include colors too. My understanding of CNP right from its inception has been that it is a forum which is beyond just a unique angle, people in the forum are making or trying to make images with a lot of thoughts working in their mind. Unique angles specially in wildlife are often not in the hands of the photographer and thus the factors of being lucky come into play. I personally feel that the uniqueness of CNP stands out here that not only wildlife but every single bit of nature is being appreciated and photographed and we can see imaginations of artists at play. I doubt if this is a regular wildlife forum, well at least not for me. Take RD's images for example, he has created a definite signature over these years to include so many aspects of nature in his theme of clutter which initially began with only branches of trees. His images are not only in monochrome but he has excellent colored images too. The entire world has moved on, one can see Sandra Bartocha, Bastien or Theo's images to see how minds are rising above the normal to make this difference and so many of them are just in color. Another important aspect of colors failing in India or in the sub continent is that light here is very harsh and pollution too high, the muted tones are so difficult to generate. The other day Arati asked me how does Sandra get such colors in her images, one can get in Gujarat / Rajasthan in winter but not everywhere here in India. Of course the Himalayas are there which can bring in a variety, but do we actually go to Himalayas to shoot butterflies in specific seasons ? Very rarely VMR.
To imagine in black and white while seeing in color requires not only more knowledge and control but also a vast degree of creativity. I am not sure personally though that compartmentalizing images into colors or monochromes is a fair treatment here but again this is entirely my idea. I must beg to differ here that black and whites are done to bring out shapes and contrasts better, shapes and contrasts only contribute partially to the physical aspects of monochrome images. We have been fortunate to see images of Nirvair or Nirlep which so delicately balance between man and nature and these images have moved deep into our hearts because we have a platform like CNP to see them. Most of Nirvair and Nirlep's images have been in colors and far away from wildlife, but deep inside nature. I can only disagree and smile at those who think that people convert images to b/w to smooth out rough edges. Even if they do while processing or use of lensbaby or tilt and shift, what is the harm in it ? Every artist needs freedom and space to express in his / her own way, it will be a pity if artists are guided on how to make their images or how to present them. It sounds more like administration of artists, or artist management :-) which in my opinion is signing a death warrant of an expressing mind and soul.
Finally, I think the bias as seen between color and black and white images are not intentional. Recently myself, Ganesh and Dhritiman were judging a contest and not a single image in monochrome could be selected. It was not intentional that we did not award any monochrome image. The images in monochromes failed to carry the mood, am sure everyone in CNP judge images the same way. It is the image first and then comes the thought whether it is in monochrome or color. I would definitely like to voice my rumblings to stand in favor of images which have patterns of natura urbania just as much as I would rumble for wildlife :-). In short, every single mind with every spark of ideas have the right to create just whatever they wish to be it color or monochrome, nature just in the backyard or among the amazing world of mammals and birds or even while making images of the members of the lesser kingdom. We have seen true democratic expressions where a leaf or a bug keeps us amazed just as much as an elephant or a rare bird....

Would love to hear the thoughts of others too....
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Vijay Mohan Raj » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:43 am

HI,
Nice points by Nilanjan, democratic expression of thought and execution are integral to CNP, that is why we are all here.
- Different presentations by different people, a vaild point there again.

I would love to see more reactions coming.

regards
VMR
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby dinesh.ramarao » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:55 am

Dear VMR :

Rule number one of CNP states:
" The image you post has to be creative, original or different and it is an image of a subject in nature . "

And you are saying

"It is time that to reinforce CNP is not a forum for B/W images but regular images of wildlife where the photographer has a unique point and angle of view ..."

Did I go wrong in understanding the rules for over 4 years now ?
-RD
- RD
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Ganesh H Shankar » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:20 am

I think what VMR is saying is creative images does not just mean B&W abstracts and we a seeing more bias towards B&W abstracts.

There is a larger issue here which needs a solution to see wider spectrum of images.

People post images which often gets critiqued and gets positive feedback. Who critiques images ? Only a very few people. Incidentally this small group has interest more in nature photography as art form, often relating it to other forms of arts, music, painting etc - more tilted towards abstractions. It is only fair to see this small group of folks commenting on what they love. This does not mean there are no other creative perspectives. I am sure several members love those other creative perspectives too. **But** unless they are vocal about them by sharing their valuable critiques on such images we may not see wider spectrum of images. This is the main issue as I see it.

Another reason I see is B&W images have a kind of "different" appeal. This is just because we don't see many B&W images everyday in other forums/web etc. But this advantage will soon disappear in CNP, or mostly it has disappeared.

So, friends, please post/critique images (not necessarily B&W abstracts!) which *you* love most. If you only love B&W abstracts please do post and critique them :)

On a positive note, I think these "introspection" discussions are always good to have and will help us rethink and will help us grow in "seeing". In how many other forums you see such qualitative discussions ? Most often photo forums are filled with long threads related to topics like how the recent lens of Canon/Nikon resolves infrared/ultraviolet light at f32 and how much this is better than xyz offering by its competition :)

PS : Away at a remote location for next 2-3 weeks, infrequent CNP access/participation - will catch up soon...
Ganesh H. Shankar
Wishing you best light,

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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Adithya Biloor » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:20 pm

I strongly disagree with
Vijay Mohan Raj wrote:true calling is when you are out in the field trying to make sense of escape route amidst ultrasound rumblings of large land mammals and faraway warning calls.
In fact I think strength of CNP lies in thinking other way. An ant and an elephant have equal importance, not only in nature but for a nature photographer also. CNP has taught us see daily things in a new way. It has taught us photographer is the reason for a good photograph and not the content. This month's IOM is a perfect example for this. If we think only animals like tiger and elephant are the true spirit of nature photography, I think , that is neglecting many of the finest seeings this forum has witnessed.

Just my 2 cents.
Regards,
Adithya Biloor
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby AratiRao » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:51 pm

very interesting introspection, this. from where i stand, i see a lot of different tracks ~ people on different personal journeys, some starting out - some on the way, some on a tangential path. All exploring their minds, their sensibilities, their skills. settling now and then for one "style" or signature, but not afraid to change that and develop a new one or many different styles, dictated by mood, by vision, by change in circumstance, by soul. that is art, isnt it?

what is within, flows without. what each of us is, shows on the forum.
there seem to be bouts of BW, bursts of color, some more evocative, some more abstract. some introspective, some overtly communicative. i feel it is individuality that is reflecting in this forum - and to what Ganesh says, people comment on what resonates. Agree that more of that should happen. much more. it is what sets this place apart.

the forum itself? it seems beautifully diverse and intensely personal as i see it - and rare that a forum is so free and yet so educational, allowing exploration of one's mind and its expression. and all of us, need to do our bit to keep it vibrant, diverse, active, alive.
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Ashwini Kumar Bhat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:52 pm

I too think that what VMR was intended to say that we need to reinforce that CNP is the forum not only of BW and abstract nature images but also of unique perspectives in wildlife imagery.

In my view restriction is the worst enemy of an artist. An artist is born free from his heart. It is very difficult to get some of the best outputs by him/her by restricting ones vision. Not all are born artists. People tend to evolve over time. It takes time for many to understand what interests them and that is an iterative process. Many a times people start to show interest because there is a place or forum in which they can exhibit their learning and that is how they wold like to evolve. CNP has been one such platform for many of us who are trying to evolve in the journey of seeing the Nature differently. We all want to be free in this journey. We dont want biased vision. Restricting members to post mainly wildlife images(mammals and birds) and color images would restrict their vision for sure. Some emotions may never be evoked in color as effectively as they are in BW. However the converse may also be true, but we would like to give the freedom to the creator to present what he feels is the better one. Restrictions may ruin the opportunity to explore many possibility of presentations and thus we may loose some of the bests in that realm.

My views.

Cheers.
Cheers,
Ashwini Kumar Bhat
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby swapnil19 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:43 pm

A very intresting section and a simple reading of thoughts above is so intresting.
I think the concept of a "good image" differs from person to person. Here in CNP we have never expect a portrait of a rare bird with a dream bokeh or a similar kind of a shot.We need to accept this fact that an image good for me may be a very ordinary from other persons point of view. This is where the thinking of a person changes. He searches for what is appreciated more and tries doing it. NOW here is where the role of cnp is so overwhelming. We have freedom of expression, we can post something here coz we know people here can understand what is behind that shot.CNP has kicked off many concepts undreamt of..for instance the amalgamation of music n pics...never ever i had heard about that before, of course am nt tht experienced but still fact remains that CNP is here to appreciate innovation. That can be in both bnw n color ,depends on person to person and i've experienced it depends highly on mood too.
its been just 2 months for me here, and this is the best kind of food for thought here...
cheers
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Rajkumar » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:36 am

I guess what VMR is trying to say is (VMR please correct me if I am wrong)

There has been a tendency to convert to B/W and post in on CNP. The same image in color would have been too straightforward and not in line with CNP ethos.

I would not disagree with this.
I love B/W and I think in B/W when I take a picture. For me it is never a after thought and experimenting on PS as a option.

I would turn around the question to " What are good reasons to do a B/W ? "

1. You want to bring out the core message without the distraction of color
2. Color image cannot be manipulated too much for tone. Especially in nature it will start to look very unreal. So when we want to bring out a expression / texture / mood and make something stand out B/W is a good option. Arati's feather pic is a good example. To make the feathers standout and express B/W is a good option doing it in color would make the plants look unreal . Tone management opportunity in color is limited.

my thoughts

- Does mere conversion to B/W make something arty. No
- If you find yourself converting to B/W and choosing between that and color to see what pleases you then you are using B/W as a last option to make a pic more interesting. okay sometimes but that is not what B/W is all about

my 2 cents of course
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Vijay Mohan Raj » Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:50 am

Hi All,

Thanks for all those you have viewed this thread, the posts were really an eye opener and my views were more elucidated in Ganesh, Ashwin and Rajkumar's posts. It is all of these.

I understand being different is not easy but being different and broadly accepted is much more difficult, my post was intended to bring out many members out to comment, I am glad many people see different sides of CNP.
Thanks to all who participated.

Regards
VMR
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Nilanjan Das » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:41 pm

Rajkumar, I must very humbly say that I completely disagree with you on all accounts here :-). May be will take up the discussion if a situation arises one day,may be an elaborate discussion will help in clearing up. I simply can not find a reason why are we even we discussing the fact we need to justify why we like colours or monochromes. I will create whatever I like and I will not justify it to anyone, period.
To bring out people to comment in this way as mentioned did not sound too worthy of appreciation :-), people speak their minds through their images already....through their creations, if one follows them, one learns a lot silently about the mind of the creator. One just needs to spend time, like few of us do, for each and every image posted here. Among those who think pushing will bring out comments from people and will make the forum a success must also consider that few members really do have problems in expressing in words...there are deficiencies here, in all of us. Let's again say, we all hold hands, time will take each one of us to the destination we never thought was for us. A silent appreciation too is not any less worthy I guess.
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby Rajkumar » Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:18 pm

Sure Nilanjan we should have a dialogue on this. May be my views are from a limited point of view. Open to a broader perspective.

I agree that a artist need not justify his creation. It speaks for itself and it is left to the viewer to understand it.
I am sure when great painters meet they do not discuss canvas, brushes and techniques but more about creation and expression.

May be I should say this is my thought process when I go down the I path of a black and white expression.
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Re: Why do we look like a B/W and Abstract gallery?

Postby krishnan v » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:04 am

We see... we adapt or interpret and we change or subconsciously incorporate... thats what happens to me mostly.

I feel that most of us also like to emulate the better artists here, and if the trend is abstract , B&W ...the trend will reflect in the posts by others. But to say that that is the only trend would perhaps not be correct.

To me , viewing and participating in CNP has made me grow out of the regular "documentary" style photography. I kind of appreciate it but, its interests me much less than it used to. Now I hardly visit those kind of forums and sites anymore ( yes, I surprise myself !)

@Nilanjan: The quality of the atmosphere in India is something I have been acutely aware of and it impacts hugely on certain kinds of images. Good point on this observation.
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